Rense: All right. Time for hour number two and a return visit from Joni Dourif of PSI TECH. PSI TECH International, founded in 1989, currently employs an expert group of professional remote viewers in its commercial operations, administered from corporate headquarters in Seattle, in the beautiful Pacific Northwest. Technical Remote Viewing training, the world's foremost remote viewing instruction, is available on video tape format, produced and distributed by PSI TECH. Joni is the guiding force and driving force behind PSI TECH and welcome back Joni.

Dourif: Hi Jeff. Thanks for having me back.

Rense: You're welcome. This is a, kind of a taking a little bit of a new public relations turn with the idea of, it has been discussed for years, and certainly known to you as being effective for years, but, using remote viewing for what we used to call self-help.

Dourif: Self-help. That's right.

Rense: Self-improvement, whatever. Let's go into this and how was it that you decided to really begin to plug it into that really necessary portion of our society?

Dourif: Well, Jeff, you know, I forgot to send you my outline of what I was going to talk about.

Rense: Well, I'll just remote view it. Give me a minute.

Dourif: (Laughs) Actually, I did remote view this show again. Anyway, I did make an outline so I thought that we would start out with an introduction, because I know that you probably have the most educated audience with regards to remote viewing.

Rense: Hey folks, she did not have to remote view that to find it out. She knows. We do have the best audience…

Dourif: No, but I'm sure that you have some new listeners who don't know what we're talking about.

Rense: Sure.

Dourif: So I was thinking I should maybe go over a bit of the basics.

Rense: Absolutely… go right ahead. Let's do that and then..

Dourif: And then get into it. Okay. So, I'd like to begin by stating what remote viewing is and what it is not.

Rense: What it is, and what it is not. That's always something that, especially folks new to the whole idea, I think need the most help with it. What is it, and what is it not?

Dourif: Okay. Remote viewing, technically, is an attention management skill. And that's quite a literal definition. But, what it means is that we manage our attention in a very deliberate and structured manner, using only a pen and paper and an alert mind. Remote viewing is not out-of-body experiences, OBEs, it's not astral traveling, it's not channeling or a trance and it's not fortune telling like crystal ball gazing.

Rense: You don't use a deck of cards here either.

Dourif: Uh, no. However, you know, we can determine future events. But, that is because this is a trained skill and it must be learned like language. Once learned and applied correctly, we can gather precise information about any person, place, thing or event in the past present or future.

Rense: Did we talk about percentages of accuracy in PSI TECH's work? Do we make any pledges or promises?

Dourif: Yes. I'd like to get into the mechanics of that in a bit. But first I'd just like to briefly go over the history for your new listeners, who probably don't know the least bit about what we're talking about.

Rense: Sure.

"I don't approve of gurus who put themselves up on pedestals, to have people worshipping them, telling them things that these people now, with this technology, can do for themselves. Why get information second hand when they can get it firsthand? So, ultimately, if enough people learn this, and eventually they will, Jeff, it will change the face of consciousness. And consciousness needs changing. Our world is pretty barbaric. " - Joni Dourif

Dourif: And so I'll just go over it real briefly. After a decade of federally funded psi research, meaning P-S-I., the Greek definition for that unexplained part of our mind. For a decade during the seventies there was research and this was before the breakthrough discovery in 1982. In 1982, one of the world's top physicists, Hal Puthoff, and one of the world's best natural born psychics, Ingo Swann, discovered a structured set of protocols that were standardized. That means that anybody who could follow directions and learn this structure could become more consistently accurate than the world's best psychics. That was the big breakthrough and that's the reason why we're talking about it today. This discovery was part of the U.S. military and was put to the test throughout the eighties at the cost of one million dollars a year of taxpayers' money.

Rense: Which is….

Dourif: And only a handful of people..

Rense: Yeah..

Dourif: were actually involved or even knew about it. There were only five people trained by the discoverer himself.

Rense: Only five.

Dourif: Only five. One of the five founded PSI TECH, my company, in 1989. So this is the remote viewing that I'm speaking about. And unfortunately since PSI TECH took it public, many saw an emerging market, so to speak.

Rense: Right.

Dourif: And suddenly, opportunistic marketers started popping up everywhere making claims about remote viewing. Books were written, schools were started and then to add to the confusion, the people involved in the preliminary research program, back in the seventies, before the breakthrough discovery, started marketing a generic nondescript version of remote viewing.

Rense: But that, are you saying Joni that you and PSI TECH have the only method that works and everybody else is a carpet-bagging phony? No, you're not …

Dourif: No, I'm not quite saying that. But, I suppose if you want to put it bluntly and in a hostile way, people have said that. What I'm saying is that PSI TECH is the only one, well not the only one, there are actually a few others, not as big as PSI TECH, but, who teach the breakthrough discovery which is a standardized structure that anybody can learn.

Rense: Now, hold on. Joni..

Dourif: Well, these other remote viewing nondescript versions have reduced the image of remote viewing to just "anything psychic".

Rense: Okay, I understand there's… the line between psychic occurrences and remote viewing is blurry. I understand that.

Dourif: Well, actually that's what I'm trying to define here. It's not. And the remote viewing ….

Rense: But for the average listener…

Dourif: …I'm speaking about is the Ingo Swann discovery.

Rense: Right. Okay.

Dourif: Which is a structured method.

Rense: Right.

Dourif: Anybody who can follow the directions and stay within that Structure. It's a skill and like any skill it has to be learned like a language..

Rense: You say anybody…

Dourif: Now, at one time we could make noises and grunt at each other, but it wasn't until we learned a language that we could actually communicate in a refined way.

Rense: Okay. You keep saying anybody can do this. Do you, is that, can anybody do it as well as anybody else…. given certain parameters of training.

Dourif: Well, to date, I do believe, I'm sure, that PSI TECH has trained more people than anybody else. And there has not been anybody that we have not been able to train. And I pause for a minute because, actually, there is a type of person that has been less successful learning this, and those are chronic marijuana smokers. But, with the exception of those, yes, everybody has the innate ability, like language. They just need to be taught.

Rense: Attention management.

Dourif: It's an attention management skill. Yes.

Rense: All right. What about….

Dourif: Well, I guess what makes it so sad, and why I wanted to bring it up, is because it's very difficult today for those who are really seeking to search this out, to have to weed through all the stories and false claims…

Rense: It's called free market enterprise, and..

Dourif: That's right. So, what I want to say is, investigate your teacher and make sure that they themselves can perform it. And, to use a very good metaphor, otherwise you're listening to a "expert martial artist, who has only read a book, and gone through a few moves, a few times, and is teaching it, but has never experienced fighting." That is, for the most part, what's out there. My company PSI TECH began training civilians from all walks of life in 1993. A few years later we came up with a method to put the training on videotape format, to make it available to anyone and everyone who wanted to learn this skill.

Rense: Now you're saying this is the Ingo Swann basic protocol, put to video.

Dourif: Yes. It's the very basic protocol. It was very difficult to find a way, it was the first time it was ever put on any sort of training tape, let alone videotape. And remember this is a young technology. Anyway, so, PSI TECH's mission is to make this available and to put this in the hands of as many people as possible. So, the tapes were made in 1997 and this was a first, and an attempt at a fairly young technology. We watched carefully how many and what types of people could successfully learn this from the videotapes and what we have found, since then is that most of our successful tape trainees were already highly disciplined hard workers with above average intelligence. PSI TECH has gone through many changes in the past year, I guess you Know - people have heard bits and pieces, here and there.

Rense: We'll concentrate on now and tomorrow. We don't need to go backwards.

Dourif: Okay. One wonderful thing that just happened; we were just given a very wonderful highly desirable choice piece of land by a very wealthy trust to build a training center for those who seek additional personalized training in conjunction with the tapes. Of course, that's in the future a bit.

Rense: Did you see that coming? Did you remote view that?

Dourif: Yes we did. Actually, we saw this coming years ago. But we didn't know where it was going to come from and it was quite surprising. It did just fall in our lap.

Rense: Interesting. Let me ask you…

Dourif: It's incredible because, I mean it's a choice piece of land that's just unheard of to get.

Rense: It's right next to the White House is it, in Washington D.C.?

Dourif: No, actually it's on the Hawaiian Islands.

Rense: Well, even prettier then.. All right. Stand by. We have a break..

Dourif: Okay.

Rense: ..and we'll come right back and talk to Joni some more about PSI TECH and remote viewing and then we'll work our way into our remote viewing to help all of us maybe make our lives a little bit easier. Be right back.

Rense: Okay. Back with Joni Dourif of PSI TECH. And that is an amazing gift of a piece of land to set up an institute, or a study center on the islands. Um, and you knew this?

Dourif: Well this was something that had come up in our session's years ago. Actually, mixing up here a little bit, remote viewing as a self-help tool, but, we at PSI TECH have been using TRV as a method by which to optimize our opportunities in the future. There's something called an Optimum Trajectory^TM that is probably one of the main self-help tools that we learn with this skill. We have targets that we call optimum trajectories. A trajectory is a path. In this case, a life path. We can look at our optimal life paths. I think that just about every PSI TECH graduate has done their own optimum trajectories. I can tell you a few stories about them.

Rense: Sure.. do. Let's give our listeners an example of some of these things.

Dourif: Okay.

Rense: And again, if I might, Joni, the remote viewing field…

Dourif: Yes.

Rense: As you well know, but for our listeners who don't know, is acrimonious, to say the least. Everyone seems to think they have their own perfect version of the Ingo's functional version. I take no position. I've had all the greats on the program. I'm just interested in hearing what you and PSI TECH have come up with, and how you want to use it, as you said, for self-help, which we've talked about with other remote viewers in the past. So, I just wanted to get that out of the way.

Dourif: Right. Okay, just to make it really clear, PSI TECH's policy is that there are no "other" methods of remote viewing. There's the "one" that was discovered by Ingo Swann, which was originally CRV and then evolved into TRV, which is Technical Remote Viewing.

Rense: Sure, I understand.

Dourif: So, that's the remote viewing I'm speaking of. If anybody else has a different definition of remote viewing, that is not what I'm talking about.

Rense: All right.

Dourif: So, (laughs)…

Rense: On the table, go ahead.

Dourif: …to get that out of the way.

Rense: All right.

Dourif: All of the Technical Remote Viewers use a very rigorous, disciplined, structured protocol in order to download their information. It is standardized and everybody uses the same protocols.

Rense: Give us some examples you mentioned a moment ago.

Dourif: Okay, well, first of all let me say that most people who make it to our doors and learn this, obviously, are on their optimum trajectories. But it appears as though people have, usually three trajectories available to them. One is their optimal, and that of course means that their life is optimized in every way. They're the happiest they can possibly be. And then there's another one that is a regular trajectory and that's actually the one that I think most people are on, where you're just sort of skating through life and not challenging yourself in ways that you should, not following your dreams. And then, of course, there's another one that's worse than that when you get into being terribly self-destructive. I haven't seen too many people on that one. However, when people come through our course or they learn how to do this, one of the main objectives is to look at their optimum trajectories. So, I can tell stories of a few of our graduates. We had one retired FBI agent who was in our graduate course who I was actually training and he was doing his Optimum Trajectory^TM in the blind. He began describing a man who was in the room, essentially doing what he was doing, and because he was remote viewing and bilocated at the time. And if I need to define that I will. He didn't realize that he was remote viewing himself. What he got was actually a man having a heart attack. And then there were elements, afterwards, of a gym. He described himself perfectly. He became a wonderful remote viewer by the end of the course. He described his weight, his height, his wife, his kids, the place where they lived, and he still didn't realize he was remote viewing himself untill he was finished. But, actually he went home and went to the doctor, and sure enough he was going to have a heart attack. He had a blocked artery, and he immediately had that taken care of. So, because he did his Optimum Trajectory^TM , that popped out, as a way that he could change something that was immediate …

Rense: He wouldn't have known otherwise you're saying.

Dourif: He would not have known otherwise. He would have had the heart attack.

Rense: All right.

Dourif: And then we have a doctor we trained several years ago..

Rense: An M.D…

Dourif: He was a neurosurgeon.

Rense: Okay. Stand by Joni. We have to have a break. Hold on. We'll come back in just a minute.

Rense: Okay. We're back talking to Joni Dourif of PSI TECH, about remote viewing. Now, remember there are a number of different courses and ideas out there. It's a controversial field. Do your own exploration. We just present one case today, of an interesting book, as it were, of choices to make and things to consider. You have a number of different types of people, highly professional people, executives, down to even high school students, I guess, in the courses, correct?

Dourif: Yes we do. And actually, it's surprising but, since we began teaching in 1993, most of our trainees and most of the people who came to our doors were aeronautic engineers, medical doctors, law enforcement at the level of the FBI, scientists, not the kind of people that the public would think would be attracted to this kind thing.

Rense: Now, what were they all after? What kind of level of work were they trying to accomplish? Something specific to each of their fields, or something different… something above that?

Dourif: Well, for the most part….. We had some incredible graduates like one who discovered, one of the original methods of operating on eardrums. I mean, something as intricate as that, he wrote the book on it. People like that I think when they read our material or when they hear about it - it resonates, it sounds right, because we approach it and speak about it in more technical terms and specifically about how it's done, it makes sense to them.

Rense: All right. You said something, you said that a doctor wrote a book on ear surgery,

Dourif: Yes. We have one graduate who had written a book on ear surgery. It's maybe about ten years old now but he was one of our more recent…

Rense: But through attention management, he was able. You said, you used the word discover, but in a way, remote viewing is only discerning that which already is. If I'm not mistaken. And he was able to see his way to write the book with this..

Dourif: No, no. He actually came learned remote viewing after he wrote the book.

Rense: Ah..

Dourif: Yeah. He had already written the book. A very accomplished man, highly intelligent. Usually people who come up with new ideas like that are trying new things and when they hear this, they know there's something to it.

Rense: They're creative, yes.

Dourif: And the doctor that I was actually mentioning before you took the break was a neurosurgeon who we trained.

Rense: Still is, I imagine.

Dourif: Yes. He's in a little bit of a different circumstance. We trained him in 1995 and he did his Optimum Trajectory^TM and he actually saw himself. Now, he was in the blind, I was monitoring him because it was his last day in the course. He saw himself alone. and he was married and they had a child, and they had been married quite a while. He was expecting to stay married. but in his Optimum Trajectory^TM he saw himself alone. And alone for quite a while living in one of his country homes. We went into the out years, further out to see what was going to happen and he perceived himself with some kind of a high-tech device and a rather youngish Asian woman, quite happy.

Rense: All right.

Dourif: I went to visit him last year and he has retired from being an active neurosurgeon, I mean he still goes on emergencies there. He's been a neurosurgeon for over twenty years. But he actually is working with Medtronics on a new cutting edge medical device and he's about to get married to a very beautiful youngish Japanese woman.

Rense: Now is this..

Dourif: I mean, his Optimum Trajectory^TM played out perfectly. He still has it, you know.

Rense: Yeah. The doubters, the skeptics would say, the obvious, self-fulfilling wishes.

Dourif: Well, the problem was, while he was remote viewing it, he did not know he was remote viewing himself. He had no idea. When he was finished with the session, then he saw the cue and he saw it was his name and Optimum Trajectory^TM .

Rense: All right.

Dourif: Another, I guess more dramatic story, and this doesn't involve a remote viewer, but it involves a person who utilized remote viewing to activate their Optimum Trajectory^TM . His story is really quite dramatic and funny. We had this friend who was an architect, many years ago, in Beverly Hills. He got divorced from his wife and his family owned a piece of land in the Hawaiian Islands - a very beautiful piece of land and there was only a shack on the land. He went there to kind of drop out and he had no money…

Rense: Sounds like a good place to drop out. He had no money.

Dourif: He had no money. He went fishing for food. Myself and my remote viewing partner at the time used to stay with him. He would invite people to stay with him just so we would pay for dinner.

Rense: All right. An opportunist. All right. Stand by. We'll be right back and hear the rest of this story. We talked a little bit about remote viewing as it is practiced and applied with the PSI TECH organization. Be right back.

Rense: (Commercial for a cell phone protection system) Okay right back and let's go back to Joni Dourif and hear the rest of this story about Hawaii and the man who was inviting you over so he could get a dinner.

Dourif: Did I say that?

Rense: I think you did.

Dourif: (Laughs) I thought you just offered me a ray-wave telephone. (Laughs)

Rense: Rayaway.

Dourif: Cell phone…

Rense: And it's a little.. it's a neat little two piece…

Dourif: You know, I like the sounds of that. It actually reminds me of another thing that we can do with Technical Remote Viewing as a self help tool, is that we can look at illnesses or diseases or just physical irritations and look at their source or their cause / treatment. I can tell you a couple stories about that. But let me just finish the one about David, the man who was living in his shack on his family land and had essentially dropped out and given up - didn't know what to do. His land was so beautiful that we used to go stay there and one of the times we said, "You know this is an intelligent guy. Let's go remote view his Optimum Trajectory / Career." So, we told him what we were going to do. He didn't really understand it, but he said "okay", So, each of us off into separate rooms and remote viewed it separately and then we came back and compared our sessions. The analysis, the outcome of our sessions was, "tree house," just "tree house." We were looking at each other going, "tree house?" We're going to tell him… okay, so, you know, you take what you get. The Collective Unconscious knows more than us. So, we went to David and we said, "David, this is what we got: Tree House." The next morning, he was up at 5:00 AM building his first tree house. That was only two and a half years ago. Right now that same piece of property has about six tree houses on it. He runs a little tree house resort.

Rense: (Laughs)

Dourif: It is constantly filled up. He never has vacancies. Plus, now, he's been invited to Hainon in China where he's in the middle of building a tree house theme park.

Rense: How fun.

Dourif: This was just incredible. Something that simple resonated with him. Of course, him being an architect in the past, after we did the sessions and then we saw him out there building the first tree house we realized, well of course. But, you know, we wouldn't have thought of that and he hadn't thought of it either. But it certainly did kick his life into optimal mode and he's having a great time of his life. He's being wined and dined by politicians of different countries and Last I heard he's opening another resort in Vietnam. We're going to get him to build tree houses on our training resort so our trainees can stay in a few.

Rense: I think that's a good idea.

Dourif: That would be pretty nice, huh?

Rense: Everybody loves a tree house.

Dourif: Well, you know, the nice thing about it is, is before David was filled up constantly, I used to take my cyber kids, I call them my cyber kids, actually my cyber employees who are just constantly sitting at computers, and I used to go dump them in the tree house, for a few nights, where there's no electricity. (laughs)

Rense: What kind of trees do they put in these… are they pretty big?

Dourif: Some are big. He makes several level ones, some of them are quite fancy and others aren't as fancy, but very comfortable and cute.

Rense: That's a fun idea. He's on to it. You got it.

Dourif: Yeah. So he's one of our more dramatic stories and most of the people who make it to our doors, like I said are already on their optimum trajectories. So when they do their Optimum Trajectory^TM it's just like a slight thing that they have to change. This is something I do for myself on a monthly and often times weekly basis. I even do it before every radio show.

Rense: All right. Tell me about that. What did you do and what did you come up with for this program?

Dourif: Actually it surprised me. Where is it, let's see I think I have it right here.

Rense: Look under "r" for radio. It's there.

Dourif: Huh?

Rense: Look under "r" for radio.

Dourif: (Laughs)

Rense: By the way, Mercury is going retrograde tomorrow.

Dourif: Well, I cued it, I cued it, let's see, Jeff Rense Show, here it is…

Rense: Did you know, Joni, that Mercury's going retro?

Dourif: Yeah?

Rense: Does that have any affect on RV, TRV?

Dourif: No. Not at all.

Rense: All right.

Dourif: Not that I know of. I mean, it certainly has never affected me.

Rense: What did you come up with?

Dourif: Well, first of all I cued it, "Optimal sub topic," okay, because obviously the topic is remote viewing, "Jeff Rense Radio Show/Tonight." And of course I got the obvious things in the beginning, of remote viewing and, the skill of it, a little bit about what I already talked about, but you didn't want to talk about very much. And then, surprisingly, I got the idea of love and death. Then after I thought about it a while, because I did this earlier in the day, I said, "Oh, of course." You know I'm talking about this as a self-help tool and that's really what people want. That's what we have found, from the people who would come to us and go through the course or learn from tapes. One of the most popular subjects is that they want to find their optimal mates. The single ones, anyway.

Rense: Always…

Dourif: Well, yeah, that's a very popular one. So, in the remote viewing session that I did about the radio show tonight it popped up that love and death were the two most significant topics to bring up tonight. During the session I re-cued it, 'most significant sub topics' and up popped love and death. So, let me tell you about an optimal mate experience.

Rense: Okay. Optimal what?

Dourif: Optimal mate.

Rense: All right.

Dourif: And this is one that I did for myself. I discovered myself unexpectedly single over a year ago.

Rense: I could have told you if you'd just called me.

Dourif: (Laughs) Really?

Rense: Oh, just, having a little fun. Go on.

Dourif: (Laughs)

Rense: I'm not a remote viewer.

Dourif: (Laughs) Okay. So, anyway, I was unexpectedly single and I decided, after I got over being upset about it, to sit down and remote view that maybe that person, who I was with, was not my optimal mate. So I sat down and did it. When you become a professional, and you've done it for years and years and years, it's like martial arts. It's a skill. So, we can do front loaded sessions.

Rense: I was going to ask you about that.

Dourif: But it takes a long time to be able to do it.

Rense: They say that's the kiss of death, you can't do that.

Dourif: That's not the case at all. See, this is where we differ from what other people say. And Jeff, it's not enough just to be a remote viewer, it's not enough to have learned remote viewing. What really makes a remote viewer, because it's a skill, is somebody who remote views every day. If you've learned remote viewing ten years ago, and you haven't remote viewed in two years, you really aren't going to up on your skill. I mean, this really is like martial arts.

Rense: All right. That's a point that's been made. And again, I've had all the greats on over the years, just about all of them and over and over again that's the issue - it is a discipline.

Dourif: Yes, it is.

Rense: All right. Go ahead.

Dourif: And it's a discipline that must be practiced. So, I'm a practioner because PSI TECH is a corporation that thrives on remote viewing as a business. This is not a side business for us. It's not a hobby. It's not something we do on the side. This is what we do --- every day.

Rense: All right. Go ahead.

Dourif: So, we can do front loaded sessions quite effectively. So, I sat down to do my optimal mate and one popped up.

Rense: When you say one popped up, did you get a name, did you get a description?

Dourif: A man popped up and I was very surprised.

Rense: But what did you get? Did you get a description, did you get an image?

Dourif: Yes. I got a man living in a castle type place across the ocean with horses around his castle.

Rense: All right.

Dourif: And it was just too unbelievable.

Rense: Did you get his phone number?

Dourif: (Laughs) No, not in the first session. No I didn't. He was about my age. I mean just like the perfect prince or knight in shining armor. I couldn't believe it. I thought this can't be. So, I ended up tasking it out as a blind target to some of my professional remote viewers and our PSI TECH trainees who have become quite proficient. They all came up with the same thing and I became somewhat obsessed with this…

Rense: They weren't front loaded. That was all blind targeting.

Dourif: Yes. All blind targeting. They all came up with the same thing. They described this man as being in a similar type of business that PSI TECH was in, which drove me crazy because I couldn't think of who it would be. I mean, if he was in my business, I should know him. And there was nobody who fit that description… and across the water, in a castle! I was thinking he must be in Ireland, or England or something - I was in Hawaii at the time.,

Rense: All right. You know what, hold on Joni. We have a break coming up. Let's let this second half of the story stand by until we get the break out, so we don't have to interrupt and we'll hear about the man in the castle with horses - the knight in shining armor.

Dourif: (Laughs)

Rense: That Joni actually.. using the staff to help the boss find a mate is a little suspect, but if you got 'em you might as well.

Dourif: (Laughs)

Rense: All right. Stand by. And, every experience Joni, so, whether you end up in divorce or stay happily married is potentially a positive experience, is it not? Okay. All right. Be right back in just a couple minutes. Don't forget the web site at R E N S E, Rense dot com. Be back.

Rense: And we are back. I'm Jeff Rense talking with Joni Dourif. Joni I mentioned one thing before we went but we ran out of time.

Dourif: Right.

Rense: In remote viewing when you look back at your life we don't necessarily try to do that that much. We try to look forward, I guess. But, you talk about optimum trajectories. Everybody makes mistakes. Everybody has, well, what they think are mistakes. But isn't it true that most everything can be used to your advantage if you are willing to learn from things? Even the painful things in life?

Dourif: Absolutely. Yes. Absolutely!

Rense: I mean, you went through a divorce, and many of our listeners have been through heartache and divorce. That's just sort of a human condition, anymore. But do you teach people to try to use those things to their benefit, as well, in your training?

Dourif: We teach them how to do it. Yes. and of course I did use it during that time. I would actually remote view every week. Joni/Optimum Trajectory/Next Seven Days. just so that I would have some guidance on what choices to make and where to go because sometimes, the week that I TRV'ed in advance, would portray me off alone in one of my places where I needed to be for that week for the optimal events to present themselves.

Rense: Ahhuh, okay.

Dourif: So, I really did rely on it heavily during that year. After the first few months of tasking out the remote viewers on my optimal mate and I ended up sketching his face, I just kind of threw everything aside and said, "I don't know this person." and so, I didn't pay attention to it. During that year, I had this company who had been calling me and they were persistent. It was one of the larger self-help companies in the nation. I finally got on a plane to go meet the owner of the company and got off the plane - there he was. (Laughs)

Rense: What was he doing?

Dourif: (Laughs)

Rense: He wasn't handling baggage…

Dourif: He was standing there with the face that I had sketched. (Laughing)

Rense: What was he… wait a minute. What was he doing staying there with the face that you had sketched?

Dourif: Well, he was the one.

Rense: Was he looking for you?

Dourif: Um…

Rense: Or was he looking for someone..

Dourif: He's highly intuitive. He knew something was up but I don't think he knew the details to the degree that I knew, at that moment.

Rense: He went to..

Dourif: And when I saw his face I nearly fainted because, actually, in one of my sessions I had cued it specifically First Meeting Place. And I had myself in an airport getting off a plane and I thought, "this doesn't make sense." That was a year prior, so, I couldn't put all the pieces together enough so I just tossed it aside. But sure enough, everything panned out exactly how the sessions had portrayed it. So that's the person and when I say optimal, I mean OPTIMAL in every way.

Rense: What was he doing at the airport though?

Dourif: He was picking me up. I was coming to meet him because when the former co-owner wanted to sell out his shares this was one of the people who wanted to buy the 50% of the shares.

Rense: Oh, I get it.

Dourif: So I was coming to meet him.

Rense: I see. But, having no idea that this was the guy you had sketched.

Dourif: I knew about the history of this company. I didn't know that much about him except from talking to him on the phone but when I saw his face, there was no doubt.

Rense: What did you say to him?

Dourif: I didn't say anything (laughs) at first.

Rense: You didn't say, "This is your lucky day, pal?"

Dourif: (Laughs) I was pretty shocked, yeah, and, then over the course of the next few weeks everything sort of came out.

Rense: Well, that's a nice story.

Dourif: Yeah, it's a pretty incredible story. I'm about to get married to him and it's so wonderful - when I say optimal, I really mean optimal because this is my dream come true. I always wanted to have a business partner who was also my husband. I know that's one of the hardest things to tackle in life, but it's something that I always thought I could have. I never wanted the life where I would come home to my husband and we would sit at the table, having been in different places for the whole day and say, "Oh, well how was your day, Dear?" That just never appealed to me. So, this..

Rense: All right, optimal…

Dourif: …ended up being ideal. It's almost too good to be true. Sometimes I have to pinch myself.

Rense: Okay. Well that's all right. Optimal, now tell me about Optimal Trajectory^TM . Is this to suggest there are multiple potentials out there and you need to be able to focus in on the best one for you, and…

Dourif: Yes.

Rense: …if so, if so, how can people forward view if there are that many multiple or infinite potentials out there?

Dourif: Well, they precisely cue their target, "Optimal." If it's a person who is at a fairly intermediate level, and they don't feel like they can do front loaded sessions yet, they could just build a pool of blind targets and throw it in there as one of the blind targets, so, they would be doing it in the blind. And, yes, you can do optimal health. I have a few stories about some remote viewers who have looked at certain health problems that they had and remote viewed it and were able to find the cures..

Rense: All right…

Dourif: …things that doctors just never would have thought of.

Rense: Let me go back now for our listeners who don't know much about this. You're hearing some remarkable personal stories and how this tool, remote viewing, and again I want to say, this program does not endorse any particular protocol..

Dourif: Okay, we heard. (laughs)

Rense: We're presenting all of them. What's that?

Dourif: We heard. (laughs)

Rense: You're here.

Dourif: I said, "We heard your endorsement." (laughing)

Rense: You're listening.

Dourif: Or your un-endorsement, I'm not sure what it was it. (laughing)

Rense: No. You are on the program and we're hearing all about TRV with PSI TECH.

Dourif: Yeah. (Laughing)

Rense: And that's what we do here. We bring a lot of different views, as you know. But what we're not hearing, I think, what people are saying to themselves, perhaps, is, how do they do it? How does Joni sit down and view this Optimum Trajectory^TM ? How much time does it take? What is she.. give me some ideas, Joni, please, of how we do this, how you do this?

Dourif: Okay. It's a step-by-step process. It's a highly structured technique that normally takes forty-five minutes to perform. It takes a person, a pen, and a stack of white paper and practice. They just need to be able to follow directions. When we train people here, we train them to go through the protocols very quickly, so that we are actually installing the skills into their autonomic system so that their body is really just going from one stage to the next quickly.

Rense: Okay.

Dourif: So that they don't have to think about what to do next. When you get to that point you can really start..

Rense: Because it's a reflex…

Dourif: ….getting some good remote viewing data. It's something that we do very quickly. It just really takes some determination to learn it. Now, what I wanted to mention before, is, another thing besides acquiring this incredible piece of land, from this trust. The thing that we are doing right here in Seattle, is making a new set of TRV Training tapes, because the old set of tapes that we made, we have found over the years that the people who are most successful in learning with those tapes were people who were already pretty familiar with RV and they were people who were so damn determined that they were going to learn it no matter what and most were above average intelligence. This bothers me, so, yes we have a great group of TRVers, but our mission, remember, is to get this in the hands of as many people as possible, regardless of their IQ. So, we are using the cutting edge technology of this larger self-help company that has merged with us. We are making a lay version of a more precise and concise step-by-step learning process so that any person can learn this but now in smaller bits and pieces without really having to understand how it works. Some people don't really care to understand the theory or how it works. They just want to do it. So they will have the opportunity to just learn it, simply. We are in the process of making them now. They are geared specifically for those people who aren't so rigorous, who really don't care how it works but they want to be able to do it.

Rense: All right, that's a very good story.

Dourif: Well, that's not a story. That's just what we're doing.

Rense: I'm just harking back to your story. I'm still letting that resonate in my head.

Dourif: Oh, you mean my optimum mate.

Rense: Yeah.

Dourif: (Laughs)

Rense: Now does this, is this something that happens with many of your graduates. They're able to, you're talking, we're talking self-help tonight, talking finding our way through the maze, now this is something that is not uncommon… success stories like this?

Dourif: Not uncommon at all. No. In fact, there's a small group of TRV trainees who have been receiving the free technical support that we provide on our web site for four or five years now. There's a group that has been meeting there for four and five years. This is what they do with it mostly. With the exception, of course, helping others, find missing pets, missing children at times and missing items. But they mainly use it for self-improvement. When I tasked out my personal optimum mate session, it was very encouraging for them because they took part in it. They actually remote viewed it in the blind, themselves and they're still around a year later to see how it happened.

Rense: That must be…

Dourif: It's incredible.

Rense: Yeah. Yeah, I'm sure.

Dourif: And,

Rense: Are you going to have a big wedding?

Dourif: No. Quiet. Nobody around.

Rense: Well, you have to invite the staff. Now, come on.

Dourif: Well,

Rense: They were involved in this remember?

Dourif: Yeah, well, we'll celebrate on the internet.

Rense: There you go…

Dourif: (Laughs)

Rense: All right. Stand by.

Dourif: Okay.

Rense: We'll come right back with Joni Dourif and PSI TECH.

Rense: All right. We're back with Joni and talking about remote viewing. You mentioned finding lost things, finding pets. We've talked about this for many years, with lots of remote viewers. How practical a tool is that, as your graduates have come back and affirmed to you after finishing the course.

Dourif: Well, the tape trainees are continually learning, but, when they get to the advanced stages, many have reported that they found their missing keys. I have several times too. I have teenage daughters. Sometimes when I didn't know where they were at night. I wanted to know if they were lying to me. I could remote view where they were.

Rense: They had to know that Mom had this ability.

Dourif: Oh yes. (Laughs)

Rense: They had to give it up.. didn't they sort of give it up and be honest with you after a while?

Dourif: Yeah. Absolutely, and all their friends know too.

Rense: Funny.

Dourif: But anyway. I wanted to mention this because somebody asked me the other night about how you can tell. an experienced remote viewer from a not so experienced remote viewer. Experienced remote viewers tend to speak in specifics because, remote viewing is a very site specific tool. Meaning, that when we grab information it's in small bits and pieces. It's as though we're looking at our target through a telescope. So we're only seeing a small radius of it. Which I can get into why some of the future predictions of some of the other known remote viewers have not come to pass. It was because that particular remote viewer forgot that he was looking with a telescope, so, that the event that he was looking at looked much larger than it really was.

Rense: Okay.

Dourif: And he jumped to conclusions. But the way to tell an experienced remote viewer from a not so experienced one is the experienced ones tend to speak in specifics. Some people find this very frustrating, like one who asked me the other day. We were talking about death and passing over to the side and he asked, "Do we take our shortcomings with us when we die or pass over to the other side?" And I had to ask, "What shortcomings?" And he said in a frustrated manner, "Well I have so many, I can't list them all." I couldn't answer his question because after having remote viewed so many people in my life, what is a shortcoming for one, is not for another. That's one thing we learn very quickly when we begin remote viewing people, especially. We have consistencies, of course, but our make-ups, our psyches, our purposes are very unique. None of us are the same. Anyway, so having remote viewed so many people passing over and in other situations I was able to tell him what the consistencies are because that is something we are able to generalize about. That was a PSI TECH project for quite a while. The way we tackled that project was, we tasked ourselves and many of our professional remote viewers against the death or passing over experience, I prefer to call it. It seemed like the same thing happened to say one extreme to the Other, the same thing happened for Mother Teresa, as it did for Adolph Hitler. There wasn't one passing over that was different in all of the people that we remote viewed in that experience. So, what I was able to tell him, was, that there are two angels that appear right before that moment of passing over. And it appears as though one is responsible for transporting our memory - now that's our memory on Earth, here. And the other one is responsible for transporting something that we determined to be the soul. We can't know for sure that's what it was, but that's what we determined it was. And, they take it to another place and put it in another type of body. We as remote viewers are able to perceive ourselves in this other place because of the emotional impact.

Rense: Right.

Dourif: But we're not able to ascertain exactly what that body is because it's so different. It's not in our thesaurus.

Rense: Got it. All right, stand by. Very interesting. I'm Jeff Rense. Glad you're here. And we are here six days a week, three hours a night, eighty hours a month, believe it or not. Coast to coast on radio stations and of course in the internet as well, worldwide. All the programs available in archives going all the way back to 1997, thousands of them. And you can hear them any time at all. Just hop online…

Rense: Okay. Welcome back. Talking to Joni Dourif about PSI TECH and remote viewing. This parcel of land that you've been somehow granted for use in Hawaii….

Dourif: A trust was given it to us.

Rense: It's a done deal.

Dourif: Yes. It's a done deal.

Rense: And you're going to have…

Dourif: We're pretty amazed.

Rense: Well, I know. And you are… I can remote, watch… Jeff is going to remote view this now. I see.. wait a minute..

Dourif: Jeff, you haven't learned how to remote view.

Rense: I see…

Dourif: I don't even think you have our tapes. (Laughs)

Rense: I see, wait a minute… I see tree houses on your Hawaiian property.

Dourif: (Laughs) I told you that. (Laughs) Well, now I know you were listening.

Rense: Of course, I'm listening…

Dourif: (Laughs) Okay.

Rense: The guy's gonna come build some tree houses on your estate. I predict.

Dourif: That's the idea.

Rense: See?

Dourif: I would like that.

Rense: Gotta have fun with this.

Dourif: Oh absolutely.

Rense: Tired of all this..

Dourif: It's not fun it's…. I have the best job in the world.

Rense: Right. And remember this, as I always say. There's room for everyone.

Dourif: Yes. And there's a place for everyone.

Rense: All right. Next…

Dourif: (Laughs) Well, actually I've been neglectful of giving out our 88 hundred number.

Rense: Can't make any money unless you tell them how to get in touch with you.

Dourif: This is just for information kits unless they want our older set of tapes. Well, they're not older, but our more advanced set of tapes for people who already know a lot about remote viewing. But for people who don't, and need a simpler way to learn it, a more Concise set will be out in a few weeks. The number to call to get a free information kit about that, is 1-888-242-4245.

Rense: You said that with an interesting little lilt in your voice.

Dourif: Well, I was reading it.

Rense: Say that again.

Dourif: 1-888-242-4245.

Rense: See?

Dourif: What?

Rense: No.. we were that young… there's a young impish sort of fun happy tone in that way you said that…

Dourif: (Laughs) Well, I am having fun.

Rense: All right.

Dourif: I'm having fun.

Rense: Trying to do that.. I'm just very interested in this new property in Hawaii. You gonna have that up on your web site, pictures of it?

Dourif: Umm.. I don't know yet. Probably. I mean eventually, sure.

Rense: Want me to remote view that for you? I predict there will be pictures up there at some point. I see them now.

Dourif: (Laughs) Now, why are you so interested in this?

Rense: I just think it's a wonderful thing.

Dourif: Yeah, it really is. Our benefactor is an incredible person. We were just so blessed. This company, actually, with all the bad rap, that you hear about us, and that's really a very very small community. Remote viewing is still a very young industry. It hasn't really broken out to the public yet, but, for the most part we've had 99% success. We've been extremely blessed and very successful.

Rense: How many graduates, now, or how many….

Dourif: I couldn't even count any more.

Rense: All right. If it's a priority, secure number I don't want to know, but, just curious…

Dourif: Well, I mean, let me put it this way. We're a multimillion-dollar company. We're not a poor company.

Rense: That's more money than I have.

Dourif: (Laughs) Well it's the company, dear.

Rense: All right. So, the point is, though, is that…

Dourif: We have a lot of expenses.

Rense: Yes, I know. The number of people interested in the field continues to grow.

Dourif: Yes it does. And I intend to make it grow even more. I know you're very careful about protecting the other remote viewers and…

Rense: This is an equal opportunity….

Dourif: And I'm not out to offend anybody and I'm not out to discount anybody…

Rense: Right. Good.

Dourif: ….either. But it is true, that I do say, that PSI TECH is the best. We do teach the one structured standardized method that anybody can learn. We're not talking about the same kind of remote viewing that many of those people are talking about. There really was only a handful of people who were trained in the breakthrough discovery that Ingo Swann and Hal Puthoff discovered in 1983. Anything prior to 1983 was research and that was nothing new. Before the breakthrough discovery there was nothing to talk about. They hadn't really come up with anything viable yet.

Rense: That's here in the United States. You're not talking about the Russians may or may not have done, in the sixties.

Dourif: The Russians really didn't do that much. The Russians screened about a million people to find six of their best psychics. And the psychics worked together, but they did not come up with..

Rense: The technique….

Dourif: ..with what Ingo Swann discovered.

Rense: They didn't come up with the technique, the protocols.

Dourif: No.

Rense: All right. Hold on.

Dourif: It's an innate ability. It's our birthright and everybody should have the opportunity to learn it.

Rense: I agree with you. We'll be right back. And by the way, for those of you out there who are Ingo Swann fans, several wonderful interviews with Ingo are in the archives. I'll have Ingo Back again, hopefully soon. Be right back.

Rense: Okay back. Our remaining segment tonight on remote viewing. We're looking at it through the eyes and mind of Joni Dourif, the driving force behind PSI TECH. And, one segment left Joni. What do you want to talk about this segment?

Dourif: Well, what I'd like to talk about is our mission and the overall Vision and why I have such an undying passion and drive to bring this to the hands of everybody. Ultimately, if everybody is able to do this, there will be no more secrets. There will be no more frauds. There will be no more second hand information. I don't approve of gurus who put themselves up on pedestals, to have people worshipping them, telling them things that these people now, with this technology, can do for themselves. Why get information second hand when they can get it firsthand? So, ultimately, if enough people learn this, and eventually they will, Jeff, it will change the face of consciousness. And consciousness needs changing. Our world is pretty barbaric.

Rense: Well, it's going going, almost gone. And if it doesn't change soon it will probably…

Dourif: That's right.

Rense: I remember, years ago, seven years ago? Talking with Ed May about this very same sort of thing and so many others, through the years. And you're right. It's the kind of thing that has such potential. That may be why the government claims they're no longer interested in it, officially. What is your read on that? Every time I have someone on from the remote viewing world, we talk about that. The government officially is out of the business, and yet the whispers continue that gee, every, probably every major military branch and intel agency has its own….

Dourif: No. They don't. That's not true at all..

Rense: All right…

Dourif: There is one remote viewer who is left and he was only partially trained and he is not even in a program that, where he would use remote viewing. He transferred to another department.

Rense: Why Joni, in your view, is there nothing left within the government or military?

Dourif: There's no remote viewing left in the government.

Rense: All right. That's what I mean. Why? If it worked and it worked very well…

Dourif: Because hey have the capability here. Why should they fund it in house when they have it here?

Rense: So just farming it out?

Dourif: They come to us when they need something done.

Rense: Okay. That's what I'm saying. They're farming the work out to independent contractors.

Dourif: Right. Absolutely.

Rense: Okay.

Dourif: And as far as I know we're the only ones who get that work.

Rense: What about the rumors of the Chinese are allegedly combing through their populace and trying to pool together a large number of people who have psi abilities that they can focus and train?

Dourif: I'm sure the Chinese are trying to do that but as far as I know, and I do know one very high level Chinese person who's a member of the royal family, who we trained, who tells me that there is no remote viewing there. She would like to see it there, but that it doesn't exist. Although, I don't know. The Chinese are very secretive and they're very inventive as we know. So, perhaps they are, but Jeff, like I said, this can only improve things. It can only make things better. You see, you can start out with the idea of spying to do harm, but what ends up happening is personal, The more you immerse yourself into that Matrix or Collective Unconscious, the more your own personal horizons open up and you see how much more is available to you. You realize how small your little world and your view was and how little you really know. I mean, this whole entire universe, an immense body of knowledge is available to you. Do you really think that they're going to be that interested in their original spying purposes? They're not. That's what happens so, that's what will happen. So, let them go ahead and learn it.

Rense: All right. All right. Well, we'll see. It's interesting and we've discussed that in the past. You're right. It's good that you brought it up again. No more secrets. But the way we find out, and for those newcomers, that remote viewing works, is through validations. You've got to be able to validate the results.

Dourif: Right. And of course, and this goes back to the problem of there not being that many experienced professional remote viewers to demonstrate that. There really are only a small handful who do this often enough to be able to validate their outcome. So what I tell people to do, is get one of our preliminary tapes and do it for themselves. Prove it to themselves. Most people when they get our tapes and do it, on the first day they've already proved it to themselves that it's possible and they can do it. Now, what is hard to drill into their minds, because psychic functioning for so long, has been this generic, "lay back, tell me what you see idea," is that, this really is a skill. And like language or martial arts, it's something that needs to be learned and then practiced. If a remote viewing has just learned it and they're not practicing it. I don't want to be taught by that kind of person. I don't want to be taught by the kind of person who read a book and then claims they can do it. I want to be taught by a martial artist who knows how to fight.

Rense: What about graduate support, post graduate support from PSI TECH?

Dourif: We have technical support that we provide on our web site. It's pretty active with quite a few loyal people. We have a chat room that has a group of people from all over the world who have been meeting there… remote viewers who have kind of grown and evolved together. Literally from all over the world, Canada, Portugal, Australia, England, Sweden. They come there on a regular basis to discuss each other's training and targets and feedback and progress. Then some post. We have a TRV training conference room where they can post their sessions. I give them blind targets every week. This week was the Dean Kaden's "Ginger /IT" invention. So now we're all looking at each others' sessions. The sessions are posted and we're analyzing them.

Rense: What are we getting? Can you give me a….

Dourif: I haven't done the analysis yet because I just posted the cue tonight so, I need to look at all of them and do the analysis. But, they all seem to have very similar data.

Rense: All right.

Dourif: Interesting. What do you think it is?

Rense: I think it's a lot of hype for something that will not be as Earthshaking as so many people are leaping to embrace.

Dourif: Oh I think so too.

Rense: It's not a free energy machine that's going to take the oil money away from the greedy oligarchs who are running the planet. It's nothing like that. It's something else.

Dourif: Yeah. It looks interesting though.

Rense: It's an interesting device.

Dourif: Yeah.

Rense: It will be a lot of fun for some people, perhaps. I don't know. The web site is available by clicking right below Joni's name in my guest section at the top of my home site at rense.com. You can go there and take a look around. Handsome site. Good looking site.

Dourif: Oh thank you.

Rense: Yeah, let me take a look now with you at the world as you may have been viewing it or as some of your staff have been viewing it. We've got the Middle East. We have a new president. Give me some international information if you can. What you expect, what you've remote viewed for the Middle East.

Dourif: Well, like I said, remote viewing an extremely site-specific tool. So, when we remote view, we're getting bits and pieces of data. But over all, what I can say is that the future doesn't look great. I mean, it's not getting better, but then, it doesn't take a remote viewer to figure that out. It just takes people opening their eyes to look around.

Rense: Are you seeing bits and pieces of widespread war in the area?

Dourif: Yeah. Well, turmoil. I'm not so sure if it's going to be war or famine or environmental disaster or all of the above. You know, certainly the Earth's water supply is a real concern. The ozone hole opening at a very rapid rate. That's a real concern that isn't talked about.

Rense: The latest word on that is that they expect it to be completely closed now, within fifty years.

Dourif: Oh right. Who says that, some oil company?

Rense: No. It's up on the web site. There are some scientists who study it and they say the indications are it is closing. So, it's like global warming. There are arguments going back and forth on both sides.

Dourif: Well, fish are dying and birds are disappearing mysteriously.

Rense: Oh, we can't pump so many chemicals, poisons and toxins into the environment and expect that not to happen.

Dourif: No. But then we've turned our home into a toilet bowl.

Rense: It's a very delicate bal… of course.

Dourif: If you take a boat across the Pacific, say, from Canada to Hawaii, what you see is garbage.

Rense: Do you really?

Dourif: Littered all over the ocean from the cruisers that just dump.

Rense: Mother nature is going to flush the toilet at some point, I think.

Dourif: Well, yeah. What is that old commercial, I don't want to give away my age here, but there used to be a commercial it was like, "Don't fool with Mother Nature.."

Rense: Sure.

Dourif: Yeah.

Rense: I remember that woman.

Dourif: (Laughs) Well, the Earth is a living-breathing thing and it can only take so much.

Rense: I think it's taken as much as it's going to take. And I think we're beginning to see all sorts of indications that it's starting to fight back now.

Dourif: Yes and you know, we're seeing the younger generation, the kids, the teenagers in their early twenties already know this. There are a lot of kids in the new generation who are declaring themselves vegetarians at very young ages. It's happening all over - and their parents are carnivorous, so, you know, it is consciousness. I'm telling you, this (TRV) will change the face of consciousness and when the face of consciousness is changed, it will just kick in.

Rense: All right. Let's do the numbers one more time.

Dourif: The numbers. Okay. I better be good here. 1-888-242-4245.

Rense: All right. That's 888, toll free, 242-4245. Right.

Dourif: You said it much better than I.

Rense: That will get… I don't have as nice of a voice though. That'll get general information and information on the new tapes as well. Correct?

Dourif: Right.

Rense: Okay. And the web site is up twenty-four hours a day. Can anybody get into the chat room there?

Dourif: Yes they can. And as long as they behave themselves they'll be able to stay.

Rense: Ah yes. There are protocols for everything.

Dourif: (Laughs) Yeah.

Rense: All right. Running out of time. One more time, the phone number is 888-242-4245. Thanks Joni for the update on PSI TECH.

Dourif: Thank you Jeff.

Rense: Let me know when the pictures of the property and the tree houses go up there.

Dourif: Oh, you want to come and be the first guest?

Rense: I just want to see the pictures, at least.

Dourif: Okay.

Rense: All right. Thanks a lot.

Dourif: Okay. Thanks Jeff.

Rense: Take care.

Dourif: Bye-bye.

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